A few weeks ago, the SMH‘s weekend magazine, Good Weekend (not online), had an article about tweens. I can’t remember the headline, but it seemed to promise an article relevant for the parent of a child between 8 and 12. Since Chatterboy is about to turn 7, it seemed like something I should read.
But the article was just about girls, so I stopped reading after a few hundred words.
Quite frequently, the blogosphere (particularly the feminist parts) comes alive with indignation about the latest toy for girls, and just how extreme girls’ introctination is getting. I agree, of course. But as the mother of two boys, I’ve found myself reading, being shocked, and thinking how nice it is that I don’t have to worry about it.
But recently, having read the tweens article, I’ve found myself wondering why all the indignation is for the girls’ toys… the girls’ prematurely sexualised behaviour. What about the boys toys? And the messages that boys are getting about sexuality? Is it just an update of that oldfashioned blaming of the victim that feminists have been tired of for years?
I mostly hang out in the feminist blogosphere (with a bit of current affairs on the side). The feminist mothers I read naturally have boys as well as girls, but none of us really get worked up over boys’ toys in the same way. There isn’t the same level of angst about teaching boys a healthy kind of sexuality as there is for boys. While there is the occasional discussion of the colour pink, and how boys should be allowed to wear it, we don’t seem to agonise to the same extent about bringing up our boys, and what kind of men we want them to be in a patriarchal world, as we do for our girls.
Of course, for our girls, we worry about how the patriarchal world will treat them. And we know what a patriarchal world was and is like for us, so we worry for our daughters. But I’m starting to wonder why we don’t put as much emotional energy into helping our boys be some of the influence for changing that patriarchal world. This wonderful letter from Flea to her boys about the My Lai massacre and rape is about the most serious thing I’ve seen on the topic.
I’ll leave you with an anecdote, while I think about what I can seriously write about raising feminist boys.
When Chatterboy was in Kindergarten, each child got to write on a big poster a little bit about themselves, including “when I grow up, I want to be…” Chatterboy wrote “a daddy”. I was torn. It was wonderful that Chatterboy thought that about the most important thing a man could be was a parent, looking after children. And that he thought that was something to aspire to. And yet, if our roles had been reversed, if I had been a stay-at-home mum with a daughter aspiring to be a mummy, I would have been horrified that that was the extent of her ambition. But on balance, I’m more proud than not. At least in parenting, my boys don’t see themselves as limited in their roles by their gender.
It’s a good question. For me – as the feminist mother of a son – I think I pay less blogging attention to the “boys’ toys” because I see them moving more in the right direction than in the wrong one, whereas for “girls’ toys” I think the reverse is happening.
The “boys’ toys” section is still overwhelming blue and so on, but there seems to be less emphasis on guns and weaponry than there used to be (to my mind) and more on things like construction toys which I don’t find particularly obnoxious or limiting.
I see lots of people nowadays refusing or limiting toys demonstrating the more toxic masculinities, yet more and more buying girls exclusively pink and increasingly pornified gear. This could purely be sampling error, of course; I don’t claim to have made a statistical study, just a general impression.
I’ve stomped around about “boys” clothing before, when the shops seem to be full of nothing but grey and brown and olive and skull/skater prints; but it’s usually not too hard to find basic jeans and simple brights or stripes as an alternative.
So I guess what I’m saying is that even within societally-stamped “boys” options, there is a fair bit of scope; the construction of boyhood isn’t quite as limited as the construction of girlhood.
We haven’t yet got quite into the videogame age, yet, apart from Katamari. My thoughts may yet change.
That gels with my experience as well. Both my boy and my girl have had water pistols/supersoakers and light-sabres, but no guns, and that’s pretty standard amongst our acquaintance. They both did make rayguns out of construction toys, too, when they were quite small.
It would be nice to see some dolls for boys that were more than just action figures. It’s a shame that the dolls in the gendered aisles are such caricatures for both boys and girls.
I haven’t really blogged about it, but at this point, I would say that I am much more concerned about the toy options facing my son than my daughter. Partly, that’s due to the fact that she’s four years older than him, and she’s mostly grown out of the dolls-and-princesses phase. The Potato, on the other hand, is in the full-on guns-are-cool phase. Plus, today we went back to school shopping, and everything he wanted was in a camo print, which I steadfastly refused to buy.
It’s a good topic, I might need to post on this.
Oh, the camo explosion, blecch. And not at all limited to boys – it’s pink camo all the way down during some crazes.
(1) A few years back when “tweens” first became recognized as a new phenomenon, it referred to an attitude rather than an explicit age-group. Not all girls went through tweens (lucky parents!!!) and I don’t think I ever met a tween boy. This may have changed in the last decade.
(2) At the moment, my daughter and I are planning to get my grandson a doll a bit like the one I had as a kid back in the early 60s. While not politically correct by today’s standards, I wanted a doll so that a girl who came to visit would have something to play with rather than be forced to play with trucks and trains (unless she was a tomboy).
Mind you… I demanded that it was a BOY doll, and made my mum knit it a blue-and-white-hooped jumper with the number 5 on the back (and was thus called “Polly” – if you’re a Geelong person, you’ll know why). Neither of my parents objected, although my dad thought I was a bit weird, and I certainly never told the /real/ Polly (who was a family friend) about the doll I had of him. I did play with the doll a bit – although it was mainly flying through the air taking screamers.
The son-out-law won’t know about the doll for young Ben until it’s too late. And Ben will of course be getting all of Kate’s books, which I’d made sure weren’t stereotype-enforcing. And Ben (nearly 18 months) made me really pleased when he put his bear and monkey in his pram, put in his bottle, waved and said “bye-bye” then started pushing his pram (using the footrest, he can’t reach the REAL handle) about the house.
As for a 7-yo Chatterboy, I’d recommend the “Clever Polly and the Stupid Wolf” series for breaking stereotypes.
I read that article and wanted to blog about it. I may still, as I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately, as my son’s girl friends are entering this age and their parents seem to take the concept of ‘tweeness’ seriously, unlike me. Or I’m not sure what to think.
I agree that it’s easier to deal with the boy stuff than the girl stuff.
Found you via Bluemilk – thank you so much for pointing out that post at One Good Thing. So much great synergy on the old internet! Flea really is the blog voice I listen to most intently with regard to raising a thoughtful and aware male human being. (I like her post with the line “any toy a boy plays with is a boy toy”: http://buggydoo.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-do-you-think-life-is-trying-to.html)
Why IS she so rare when there are so many great writers on the issue of raising feminist girls? I wonder if part of it springs from the different dynamics between mothers and daughters than between mothers and sons — less identification in the mother/son relationship, perhaps, and less awareness of what specifically is emotionally dangerous in childhood/adolescence. I mean, once you steer clear of the militarized stuff and the overly commercialized stuff, it’s hard to know what supports and what hinders a kid’s imagination, empathy, and sense of responsibility towards other people, which are the “feminized” values I want to be sure to inculcate.
[...] brings me to this little gem of a post from Penguin Unearthed asking where’s the online feminist discussion about raising feminist [...]
Any suggestions on what to tell my almost 6 year old what the pictures of “girls showing off” outside the newsagency are very welcome while you’re at it ; )
Where on earth did you get the idea that this is a patriarchal world. Perhaps its just because mostly men run companies and countries. Is that it?
Have you ever looked to see who is teaching in schools.
Who is leading the scout groups.
Who manages most offices.
Who manages most government offices
Who manage the children
Who manage the men
Who are the trainers in most training organisations
Who are the editors of most magazines and newspapers
Who manage and work in most book publishers
Who manage most book shops
The list is endless
But notice that all these professions are in control of the formation of ideas, values and beliefs. Patriarchal – just who do you think you are kidding?
The answers are women, women, women and women
Have you ever wondered why gay populations are exploding.
Perhaps it is because feminists are scaring the sh–t out of their little boys and other little boys so they are scared stiff to be male. Therefore all they have left is to be some sort of hybrid. They cannot be female and frightened to be authentic males.
Have you ever thought of the legacy feminists are creating. Then think about this, and I’m not happy about the prospects for the sake of particularly all those women who are not feminists who will inevitably suffer as a result. The universal law of artificial distortion. When you create a distortion the eventual backlash is more terrible than ever envisaged. Just look at nature, human nature, social groups and social behaviour anywhere and you have the proof over and over and over again.
Oh thanks you dear feminists what a wonderful job you are doing. However, the rest of the world understands your motives and that includes an awful lot of women who want their men to be men and masculine. Who want to guide their children but not create any more distortions. Who do not want to manage the world because they realise what a stressful and thankless job it is. Who do not want to be top managers or CEO’s because they see how they age quickly and all too often die young because of the pressure and endless commitment.
Your motives are nonetheless quite clear. You must have your gay hairdressers, and costumers, gay shoe sales people and all the other gay personnel service industries that pamper you women so effeminately and so well.
But when you are in trouble and two gay non interventionist policeman come to your door and more concerned about their hair and getting enough sleep, who is going to disarm that thief or terrorist in your house.
When the rest of the world thinks about feminists and it not that often, nonetheless the same following words seem to come to mind.
Self importance
Self empowering
Self serving
Self deluding
I have no delusions about you publishing this reply simply because of the above. However, may be you might just think about the consequences and getting the balance of your opinions and influence more centred. That is so your children can grow up to know what it is to be authentic rather than being bludgeoned with your personal dogma and beliefs. You already know how impressionable a young mind is. So please give a little thought to avoiding another distortion the next time your feminist attitude rises from its recesses and starts again sharpening its claws on the metal of masculinity.
This is also something I’ve been thinking a lot about, from a slightly different perspective. The niggling concern at the back of my mind is that our negative response to some “girls’ toys” just perpetuates the tradition of deriding and trvialising female interests. Don’t get me wrong – I loathe Br@tz dolls as much as the next feminist – but my daughter, obviously unencouraged by me, loves them, and Disney princesses, and the whole pink shebang, so I don’t want to diminish her pleasure in the things she enjoys by being too negative about them. (Although I am still planning a mystery disappearance for the only Bratz doll she owns, which was given to her for her birthday last week).
I agree there is a corresponding lack of concern about inappropriate boys’ toys, which just makes me more uneasy. I think there *are* issues around toys or activities (like people taking young kids – generally boys – to see Dark Knight) for boys, but they aren’t regarded in the same negative light.
I reckon the most important thing is not to be reductive about it – girls can like Disney princesses AND playing with trains, boys can push prams AND battle with light sabres – which is why I love, without ambivalence, that anecdote about Chatterboy wanting to be a Daddy when he grows up. It also wouldn’t worry me if my daughter professed a desire to be a Mummy – because she can (and, I hope, will) be a Mummy and a vet or a High Court judge or whatever she likes.
That is so your children can grow up to know what it is to be authentic rather than being bludgeoned with your personal dogma and beliefs.
That’s right! I should let my children be bludgeoned with your personal dogma and beliefs!
In your dreams, buddy.
Greetings!
I too am upset by the crap that is marketed to girls…but also to boys as well. DH and I have been trying to find calmer games for Babyhead to play instead of always fighting in way way or another.
However, I will say Babyhead does have a babydoll. It was actually given to use as a wedding gift as a joke, but he likes it and the one time I thought to give it away he had a fit…so I kept it thinking that maybe it would teach him to be nurturing.
I just had my daughter less than 2 months ago, and I have to say I am soo scared she is going to grow up with some kind of eating disorder or twisted sense of self that society pushes on girls…I can only hope we can counteract that with how we raise her! However, with a rowdy brother and a tomboyish mom and martial arts dad…I hope we can instill some sense of self in her that isn’t tied to what she thinks the world thinks about her..
As far as your son wanting to be a dad…you have to think that we want our children to be the opposite of what society wants them to be. Women are expected to be wives and mothers…therefore of course we would be upset if at a young age all she wanted was to be a wife and mother…we want her to know that there are options out there.
As for boys…we want them to want to be husband’s and fathers because they KNOW their options…they can be President, or an astronaut, or a doctor without even trying real hard and no one would think twice about it…but being a father is something that most men don’t really “aspire” too much less boys. Of course you would be proud of him.
And for you, Robertpaul…I was going to write something to your comment..but decided to stick to my strict policy of not feeding trolls.
Thanks for the comments everyone. I’m still not sure that it’s easier to deal with boys stuff. There is a huge negativity around boys liking dolls, or fairies, or butterflies, or anything “girly” out there – maybe you’re right JV, we need less of the negativity about girls toys, and more positivity that boys should like them too.
[...] August, 2008 by penguinunearthed Thanks to bluemilk, I got quite a few comments on my last post, so I feel I should follow it up with some actual commentary, given I thought the feminist [...]
I have to say I’m unhappy with the way you’ve framed it. I’ve been kicking posts around in my head for literally years about boychild and how I’m unsure about how to neutralise the patriarchal messages he is getting, but
*I don’t really have “the answer”
*I never have time to blog about all the things I think about
*I have an instant gut reaction to people saying we’ve “failed” because we “ought” to be blogging topic X and we haven’t.
The net result is to turn me off blogging it even more. Total kudos to you for kicking off a discussion about this important topic in this corner of the blogiverse, but I think a swipe about the “failure” of everyone else to do so is unnecessary.
Now I feel terrible. Sorry for being snippy, but really we can’t blog everything!
I have thought of doing something on the requirement of men not to rape versus the “responsibility” placed on girls and women not to be raped, and how that must start in boyhood, but guess what? I haven’t worked that one out yet! He’s only 11, so I’m going to leave the rape discussions for later.
Mine’s five, and I’ve been trying to figure out how to start teaching that sort of thing too, not at that level. Right now I’ve just gone for basic protective behaviours – your body is yours, for other people it’s the same, when someone says “get out of my face” or “stop touching me” you get out, if someone touching you is uncomfortable or doesn’t feel right (we have elaborated here in various ways), you can say STOP, if they don’t stop you can yell, run away, tell someone (we’ve gone through who to tell), it’s not your fault, etc.
And I’m trying to model (and explicitly point out) respectful body behaviours – asking him if my touch is ok when I’m stroking his hair or cuddling, respecting his nos, that sort of thing. The other day he got grumpy when I was giving him his nighttime back-tickle (light back massage, settles him for sleep), then he explained to me at length that it was not symmetrical and he wanted it symmetrical each side, and showed me how. I figured that was a good sign. Touchees get to enjoy receiving touch, and request adjustments or say no altogether. I ask for the same respect when he’s touching/hugging/draping himself across me, so we’re teaching the two-way-street as well.
Helen – I think your comment was fair enough – I don’t think I read enough of the feminist blogosphere to generalise about it as much as I did. But I started to realise just how much I was thinking, “thank goodness I don’t have to worry about that” every time I read another horrible story of some sexualised or overly domesticated girls toy, and thought that there must be some things I should worry about – surely society isn’t raising its boys perfectly?
Lauredhel, I think yours is a great question, and one which I don’t really know how to answer, except to teach respect for each other’s personal space – not sure how well we do that in our house.
Found you thanks to BlueMilk. What a great post and community of readers!
As the feminist mom of a 4 yo boy, and soon-to-be mom of a girl, I’ve found the toy area easier if we do the direction. We encourage his interest in animals, the stars, the natural world. We do watch television, but it’s all done together – again, age appropriate programming, and more nature if we can fit it in.
Toys were less the issue as much as clothing was – here in the states, it’s difficult to find nice boy – even toddler – clothes that aren’t grey, or camo, or some other palette/style that doesn’t say young soldier as opposed to young boy. I’d strive for bright colors and patterns, and tried to get away from stereotypical boys-only things.
We talk about how it’s important to be good to other people, use our words – that it’s ok to be angry, but it’s not ok to hit or be mean to people when you’re angry. Also, as he is a big boy for his age, we make a real effort to tell him that big strong boys do not pick on people smaller than him. Those shouldn’t be feminist-only precepts, and yet, sometimes when I see how kids treat each other, I wonder…
I’m not particularly concerned about the toys my son has, I’m not thrilled about the inculcation of car culture either, but I’m not worried that giving him cars or trains will negatively impact his future relationships or working life.
I am worried that we live in a world where boys are routinely told that being gay is the worst thing that could possibly happen, that gayness and femininity are pretty much the same thing, that femininity is bad, and that violence is the best way to solve problems. Young gay men in Australia are at very high risk of suicide (so are queer women, but women ‘succeed’ in killing themselves less often). I know how to make my own house queer-friendly, but I can’t enforce my views when my kid or my neices and nephews leave the house, and I have absolutely no idea how to protect them against the robertpauls of this world.
Now that my children are older, I feel less comfortable posting about some of this stuff, because I couldn’t do it without exploring their opinions, which are private.
Among our friends, there is far more variety (in toys, behavior, clothes) for the girls, than for the boys. Some of this is pure patriarchy, of course: the underlying, unexpressed idea that a default “neutral” is male rather than female. I really don’t feel comfortable expressing myself in this way, normally, but you can see how male=neutral in many ways, when you look at how easily girls CAN cross over (to boys’ clothes, boys’ toys, etc) compared to boys.
Then there’s a sort of reaction, in some areas, where the encroachment of the girls into the “gender-neutral/boy” areas leads to the boy stuff becoming even more hyper-masculine (the popularity in the US of “wrestling” — the TV kind, not the Olympic sport — for example).
I do know many boys who are good at disguising their more “feminine” impulses while conforming to the cultural norm — here I’m thinking of relatives in smaller towns/non-college cities.
I don’t think it’s easy to raise children of either sex to embrace all parts of themselves, at this moment in time when a great deal of consumer and entertainment culture seems set on emphasizing the “radical” differences between men and women.
I have an eleven year old boy. I’m not too worried about him turning into a neanderthal because we talk ALL the time. He seems to understand, unlike some of his friends, that women are “people too”. I find some of his friends’ attitudes to girls and women appalling, and since they go to the same school I can only assume that this attitude is picked up at home.
I think the two most important things a boy can have in his life is a man who respects women (meet my husband) as a role model, and an articulate woman who can point out the ridiculous logic, outdated stereotypes and outright lies regarding gender in the world outside the home (meet me).
He is one of a few boys at school who has conversations with girls. Why? Possibly because at home he is exposed to our conversations all the time. The message is, girls are worth talking to, they have interesting things to say.
He also has interests that are stereotypically boy-like. He likes to play-fight, plays war strategy games on the computer and prefers sport to playing with teddies. He is adamant that I don’t interfere with them too, and I don’t.
My daughter, on the other hand, is obsessed with dolls and teddies and she’s not yet two. I don’t know where she gets it from, it’s certainly not me, and if she ends up being the kind of chick that’s interested in nail polish and hair we are going to have very little in common!
My theory is that there are certain amount preferences children are born with, and the rest is up to you to role model and point out. What more can we do?
Came via Bluemilk via Audrey.
Hello, feminist mothers of sons!
I am a son of a feminist mother and approaching thirty.
Just about everything I’ve read on this page, worrying about exactly HOW to raise a feminist son without him being a … well, a robertpaul for a start … but I’ve been through all of them.
I’m proud of who I am and my parents’ massive role in that. Makes me tear up a bit thinking about my wonderful folks right now (don’t worry robertpaul, I’m suppressing it a bit).
Mum BANNED all boysy masculine toys … until she discovered that they were the ones which lasted the longest. He-Man and all his hyper-muscular friends are still around, grimacing at each other and providing little plastic mirrors for my identically rippling physique, of course. Transformers with guns? Ditto. Go to it – but be careful, don’t break them.
No girlie dolls, no pink, no worries.
The most important thing has already been stated by Emma: great role models. I’m still aspiring to be like Mum and Dad. (Except for the bit where Mum used to go through my picture books and change the masculine pronouns to feminine ones with a pencil. Thanks, Mum.)
Get all the toys they want, just make sure they know the difference between the toys and the reality. And with you bloggers running things, it’s pretty obvious they will.
[...] I’ve also read some interesting posts called how to raise a feminist son and raising feminist boys. [...]
[...] I’ve also read some interesting posts called how to raise a feminist son and raising feminist boys. [...]